Including all the “hero subversion” elements led directly to the film’s biggest issue imo: pacing. It’s 2.5 hrs long and spends huge stretches just kind of meandering around. All in all, I thought it was fine, not great but not terrible either. Will probably win more awards than it deserves thanks to the obvious racial politics angle.
It did at least awaken a strong desire to have an ice queen Lea Seydoux-type command me to kneel and then harvest my gene seed in ruthlessly pragmatic fashion. I’ll be taking out a personal ad in the paper to that effect - will report back with results, if any.
Haven’t read Dune in a while but I loved it when I was a kid and it definitely featured a lot of dark foreshadowing of massacres and tyranny once the Fremen got loose around the galaxy. But that wasn’t in any contemporary anti-colonial frame, it was more that this is a fanatical warrior tribe being unleashed. So it had a tragic dimension that I guess would be hard to do today.
BTW if you haven’t read Lawrence of Arabia’s own autobiography (Seven Pillars of Wisdom) it’s one of the greatest autobiographies ever written in English, highly recommended. A very real and adult book unlike Dune which is in the end a child/adolescent fantasy
To me, the greatest offense is what they did to the female characters. Alia is totally absent, and Chani and Irulan are completely rewritten so as to be unrecognizable.
It will be interesting to see how they portray those two in Dune Messiah. In the book, the two of them are more or less fighting over who's going to have Paul's baby. Chani is a perfect companion, whereas Irulan is a scheming traitor only focused on her own good.
Spot on. Just finished watching it in the theater and explained to my boys a number of points you brought up: Chani, that she wasn't a proto-feminist pouty girl in the book, nor was she a harpy girl boss screeching at the Fremen tribesmen the whole time. The entire north/south divide was shoe-horned in along with the white savior nonsense that was not really present in the books.
I’ve never read the books so these new films are my only connection to the Dune world. The first movie was pretty good and I thought this new one was great. I saw Paul as a hero and that part of being a hero means embracing the dark (I coach youth basketball so I know that leadership sometimes means going tyrant mode). I found it compelling and exciting. Great theater experience. I agree with some of what you’re saying about nukes and lasers but didn’t think it really changed my experience. Only major flaw was too much chani. Her stuff wasn’t interesting.
I’m not saying you’re wrong and it is a valuable insight but justifying the occasional need of tyranny by saying “I coach youth basketball” is hilarious
an irl midwit meme with “youth basketball coach” on the left, screeching human rights lawyer harridans in the middle, and Heidegger on the right. lol
If you understand the contemporary political spectrum you know that youth basketball coaches are hard right and Heidegger doesn’t appear. The human rights harridans are on the left and someone wringing their hands and wanting to make an exception for Israel is in the middle
Bautistas character was supposed to be the fall guy. He was going to mismanage and brutalize the freemen and then his cousin Feyd was going to step in and be the white savior.
Just saw it yesterday and im torn. Yeah it isnt very good but we live in such a cinematic drought what else is there to look forward to in the theater? I cringed every time zendayas mug popped up on the screen and when she opened her trap. The final battle that had been building for 2 movies was also very rushed and the sardaukar and harkonens were apparently defeated almost instantly making me question why the fremen didnt revolt much earlier. The director however knows how to use cgi to build a beautiful world and i was impressed with many of the scifi shots. Im only halfway through the book but gurney halleck was enslaved and i think his sister killed by bautistas character though i dont remember if the films bring it up and their final duel was very unsatisfying and quick. To get the womens perspective i asked my wife what she thought and she answered, " too long and i didnt like how paul broke up and humiliated zendaya in front of everyone, poor zendaya". To end: what the fuck is furiousa? Where is the mad max sequel?
Thanks for this, right on. In addition to the lame political msg, the problem w the fremen being all different races is it made them not believable as a cohesive group. They’re tribal, it’s supposed to be an extended family! Took me out of the movie
Yeah I wasn't a fan either. The "gladiator" scene has some really weird racial vibes, and I don't really understand why they changed it from the book (one of the few parts that I can really clearly remember having not read it in about 6 or 7 years).
I always felt the Sardaukar died far too easily and quickly at the "finale". Even little Chani apparently had no problem taking them down.
And the ending was so open the next film could literally go anywhere.
Sounds like exactly the Media Literate adaptation I was fearing. Tedious topical thematic pretentions that appeal to the class of morons who thought Dune really clicked for them when they "understood" the allegory for oil wars in Middle East (a completely idiotic and wrong interpretation). The White Colonialism firmware update has been deployed.
I think the first film worked because (intentionally bad casting aside) it mostly studiously avoided any of the interesting themes from the book in favor of broadly accurate plot, characterization, and setting details presented with monolithic sci-fi atmosphere.
There were other red flags, of course. The one that sticks out to me for whatever reason is the Gom Jabbar scene, which subtly changed dialog in ways that seem to foreshadow Part 2. The scene in Lynch's dune is more directly adapted from the book.
Great listen as always. Again, plugging a review of A Perfect World (93) I think a very important movie for our day and age that focuses on male responsibility.
the free episode should have rly shitty audio, with like smoke detectors chirping because apparently the freeloaders live in section 8 housing anyway
You're making me both cope and seethe
Including all the “hero subversion” elements led directly to the film’s biggest issue imo: pacing. It’s 2.5 hrs long and spends huge stretches just kind of meandering around. All in all, I thought it was fine, not great but not terrible either. Will probably win more awards than it deserves thanks to the obvious racial politics angle.
It did at least awaken a strong desire to have an ice queen Lea Seydoux-type command me to kneel and then harvest my gene seed in ruthlessly pragmatic fashion. I’ll be taking out a personal ad in the paper to that effect - will report back with results, if any.
Haven’t read Dune in a while but I loved it when I was a kid and it definitely featured a lot of dark foreshadowing of massacres and tyranny once the Fremen got loose around the galaxy. But that wasn’t in any contemporary anti-colonial frame, it was more that this is a fanatical warrior tribe being unleashed. So it had a tragic dimension that I guess would be hard to do today.
BTW if you haven’t read Lawrence of Arabia’s own autobiography (Seven Pillars of Wisdom) it’s one of the greatest autobiographies ever written in English, highly recommended. A very real and adult book unlike Dune which is in the end a child/adolescent fantasy
To me, the greatest offense is what they did to the female characters. Alia is totally absent, and Chani and Irulan are completely rewritten so as to be unrecognizable.
It will be interesting to see how they portray those two in Dune Messiah. In the book, the two of them are more or less fighting over who's going to have Paul's baby. Chani is a perfect companion, whereas Irulan is a scheming traitor only focused on her own good.
Spot on. Just finished watching it in the theater and explained to my boys a number of points you brought up: Chani, that she wasn't a proto-feminist pouty girl in the book, nor was she a harpy girl boss screeching at the Fremen tribesmen the whole time. The entire north/south divide was shoe-horned in along with the white savior nonsense that was not really present in the books.
*Wrong*
I’ve never read the books so these new films are my only connection to the Dune world. The first movie was pretty good and I thought this new one was great. I saw Paul as a hero and that part of being a hero means embracing the dark (I coach youth basketball so I know that leadership sometimes means going tyrant mode). I found it compelling and exciting. Great theater experience. I agree with some of what you’re saying about nukes and lasers but didn’t think it really changed my experience. Only major flaw was too much chani. Her stuff wasn’t interesting.
I’m not saying you’re wrong and it is a valuable insight but justifying the occasional need of tyranny by saying “I coach youth basketball” is hilarious
an irl midwit meme with “youth basketball coach” on the left, screeching human rights lawyer harridans in the middle, and Heidegger on the right. lol
If you understand the contemporary political spectrum you know that youth basketball coaches are hard right and Heidegger doesn’t appear. The human rights harridans are on the left and someone wringing their hands and wanting to make an exception for Israel is in the middle
He's talking about the bell curve meme, not political orientation
I’m gonna be a book dork :
Bautistas character was supposed to be the fall guy. He was going to mismanage and brutalize the freemen and then his cousin Feyd was going to step in and be the white savior.
God damn you. I just bought tickets to see it. Is it over for me?
it's over
Just saw it yesterday and im torn. Yeah it isnt very good but we live in such a cinematic drought what else is there to look forward to in the theater? I cringed every time zendayas mug popped up on the screen and when she opened her trap. The final battle that had been building for 2 movies was also very rushed and the sardaukar and harkonens were apparently defeated almost instantly making me question why the fremen didnt revolt much earlier. The director however knows how to use cgi to build a beautiful world and i was impressed with many of the scifi shots. Im only halfway through the book but gurney halleck was enslaved and i think his sister killed by bautistas character though i dont remember if the films bring it up and their final duel was very unsatisfying and quick. To get the womens perspective i asked my wife what she thought and she answered, " too long and i didnt like how paul broke up and humiliated zendaya in front of everyone, poor zendaya". To end: what the fuck is furiousa? Where is the mad max sequel?
Thanks for this, right on. In addition to the lame political msg, the problem w the fremen being all different races is it made them not believable as a cohesive group. They’re tribal, it’s supposed to be an extended family! Took me out of the movie
Yeah I wasn't a fan either. The "gladiator" scene has some really weird racial vibes, and I don't really understand why they changed it from the book (one of the few parts that I can really clearly remember having not read it in about 6 or 7 years).
I always felt the Sardaukar died far too easily and quickly at the "finale". Even little Chani apparently had no problem taking them down.
And the ending was so open the next film could literally go anywhere.
Great free episode
Sounds like exactly the Media Literate adaptation I was fearing. Tedious topical thematic pretentions that appeal to the class of morons who thought Dune really clicked for them when they "understood" the allegory for oil wars in Middle East (a completely idiotic and wrong interpretation). The White Colonialism firmware update has been deployed.
I think the first film worked because (intentionally bad casting aside) it mostly studiously avoided any of the interesting themes from the book in favor of broadly accurate plot, characterization, and setting details presented with monolithic sci-fi atmosphere.
There were other red flags, of course. The one that sticks out to me for whatever reason is the Gom Jabbar scene, which subtly changed dialog in ways that seem to foreshadow Part 2. The scene in Lynch's dune is more directly adapted from the book.
Great listen as always. Again, plugging a review of A Perfect World (93) I think a very important movie for our day and age that focuses on male responsibility.
Thank you, I'll check it out